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by StephentheHeathen from Eastsoutheast of KC

Last Post 174 days, 10 hours Ago


Blaise Pascal, a 17th-century philosopher and mathematician, made contributions to the construction of mechanical calculators, the study of fluids, helped create the studies of projective geometry and probability theory, and strongly influenced the development of modern economics and social science. His namesake is also shared by a programming language and a unit of measurement.

Then he had a "mystical experience" and he abandoned his scientific work and devoted himself to philosophy and theology. It was during this time that he formulated "the Wager";

 

"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ... you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is."

 

Based on a probabilistic argument, it goes something like this:

 

If you believe in God and God does exist, you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven; thus an infinite gain.

 

If you do not believe in God and God does exist, you will be condemned to remain in hell forever; thus an infinite loss.

 

If you believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded; thus a finite loss.

 

If you do not believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded, but you have lived your own life; thus a finite gain.

 

Mathematically a finite gain or loss is negligible compared to an infinite gain or loss. Therefore, he concluded that it was a much better choice to believe in God rather than to practice atheism.

 

There are many problems with this statement. One, which does not constitute a logical fallacy in its own right, is the fact that there are an infinite number of hypothetical gods. If there was no possibility of more than one god's existence, the statement would make logical sense, however, there is no evidence that the Christian god is more real than any of the Hindu gods or even the Orbiting Tea Pot. Even in the limited world-view of Christian monotheism, various individual Christian sects disagree with one another about what is necessary for salvation.

 

Pascal's wager sounds deceptively simple. Many a religious person finds such a call attractive: one only needs to believe without considering the evidence and one would immediately be in a better position than that of the non-believer. After all, they say, if I believe and then it turns out to be true I get to enjoy heavenly bliss; but if my belief turns out to be false, and there is no God, then when I die, I lose nothing. An atheist, the religious person may continue, if he turns out to be wrong will suffer an eternity of torment. If the atheist turns out to be right then it is only equal to the believer's "worst case." Obviously then, the believer will say, you must wager on the side of belief.

 

But Pascal's argument is seriously flawed. The religious environment that Pascal lived in was simple. Belief and disbelief only boiled down to two choices: Roman Catholicism and atheism. With a finite choice, his argument would be sound. But on Pascal's own premise that God is infinitely incomprehensible, then in theory, there would be an infinite number of possible theologies about God, all of which are equally probable.

 

Pascal's negative theology does not exclude the possibility that the true God and true theology is not one that is currently known to the world. For instance it is possible to think of a God who rewards, say, only those who purposely step on sidewalk cracks. This sounds absurd, but given the premise that we cannot understand God, this possible theology cannot be dismissed. In such a case, the choice of what God to believe would be irrelevant as one would be rewarded on a premise totally distinct from what one actually believes. Furthermore as many atheist philosophers have pointed out, it is also possible to conceive of a deity who rewards intellectual honesty, a God who rewards atheists with eternal bliss simply because they dared to follow where the evidence leads - that given the available evidence, no God exists! Finally we should also note that given Pascal's premise, it is possible to conceive of a God who is evil and who punishes the good and rewards the evil.

 

The argument against Pascal's wager is as such:

 

If you belive in a single God, you will have to choose one out of  infinite possible varieties.

 

If any percent of the possible gods will punish you eternally, then there is an infinite number of gods who, if they exist, would punish you for eternity.

 

If there is only one god, then your chance of worshipping it, and not a nonexistent entity instead, is one out of infinity.

 

Therefore your chance of picking the correct "One True God" is very close to zero.

 

So if a god does exist, the chance of you going to any variety of heaven is infinitesimal, regardless of whether you are religious or not.

 

 

Believe or not the choices are yours, but leave the wagering in the casinos.

 

 

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RabidAnglophile read my blog
Dec 31, 2008 | 9:08 AM

Altho I have not studied Pascal at all, I do run on to a quote or two of his in my readings and sometimes write them down when they are pertinent to my mood or situation at the time,(only to lose them later!). He says some very interesting things and I believe your blog here proves that.

However Stephen, I still choose not to wager, but believe (even though sometimes not as strongly as I'd wish due to the fact I question everything). I still have a problem with that primordial soup thing and everything generating from one murky cell. I'd rather believe it took an artistic and fertile mind to create the beauty of our planet. He may have screwed things up with humans though!

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Dec 31, 2008 | 10:48 AM

I agree that Pascal was a very smart and interesting person and in a way I admire him. I just disagree with some of his religious philosophy (another oxymoron?) as do a lot of other people.

One of the problems that I had with Christianity before I left it was this "wager". Bow down and accept Jesus, or else. If you align yourself on God's side, what are your motives? Do you truly believe in him and love him as he requires, or are you just out to save yourself from burning in torment for eternity? An all-knowing God will discern this and then what will his reaction be at judgement time? And then there is the aspect of the loving peaceful Jesus sitting on the judgement throne willing to cast some (most?) of his Father's creation made in His own image into a lake of fire (wherever that is, I guess that he'll just whip that up out of nothing too). That has ego, jealousy, and wrath written all over it. I chose to leave that concept (among others) to see if there is really "something greater" than myself, this higher power. I need something that doesn't run on human emotions and secrecy.

Your faith seems to have made you a better person and I'm glad, has my lack of faith made me worse, I don't think so. I also chose not to wager, but only to live in the here and now and try to make each day count. The difference is that I don't have a judgemental God living in my heart or looking over my shoulder.

wood-cutter read my blog view my photos
Dec 31, 2008 | 11:14 AM

I will never argue that a person has to be religious to be moral.You can have ecellent values without the code that religions provide and I will even say that there are probably some people that live a more moral life than some that call themselves religious.

Do you believe in Karma? Isnt Karma an unseen force that dictates or meters a "punishment according to your actions?Does Karma have an ego?jealousy? or wrath?Are you saying you find it easier to believe in an "imaginary" force that will serve up justice or punishment as long as it doesnt have a specific name,"rule book" or laws?When you decide not to do somthing because its "bad Karma" are you not "wagering"that it exist or has the ability to come back on you? Just wondering...........

RabidAnglophile read my blog
Dec 31, 2008 | 12:57 PM

Actually, you are quite right Stephen. My faith has made me a better person altho I wasn't a bad one before that. I was a compassionate person before, but I find I do more charitable things now, yet I don't do them (or at least I don't think I do) in order to have my Creator judge me better. It just makes me feel good. Please know that I am not saying you must believe in God to do charitable or compassionate things to feel better. People's needs were brought more to my attention by attending a church that has ministries for these needs and it was much easier for me to just 'jump in' and contribute instead of having to search out these places.

As with WC's comment, I too do not believe one must be religious or a Christian to be moral and do good things. There are plenty of Pagan and 'heathen' type folks out there that act better than the 'Sunday Christian'. I'm convinced that you're probably one of them.

WingMan read my blog view my photos
Dec 31, 2008 | 4:04 PM

To wager or not to wager, that is the question at hand.

1. If you believe in God and God does exist, you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven; thus an infinite gain.

2. If you do not believe in God and God does exist, you will be condemned to remain in hell forever; thus an infinite loss.

3. If you believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded; thus a finite loss.

4. If you do not believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded, but you have lived your own life; thus a finite gain.

For one, I believe the first one, as you all know, but why do some people take the chance that there will be no GOD....

As I stated before, in my personal opinion, it is because they want to do whatever they want to do without having to answer to anyone, but one day they will come face to face with the almighty and they will then know that they were wrong.

Stephen, did ya think I would stay away - LOL

GOD Bless,
jerry

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Jan 1, 2009 | 1:10 PM

Nope WingMan, I was counting on it. lol

The wagering on believing or not comes down to the motives that I commented on above. Did someone come to Christ out of fear or because he was a better deal or because they really truly love him? An all-knowing God is going to discern this and then what happens at judgement time?

You can't force people to believe out of fear, or any other reason. Does saying the words to cover your arse to keep from damnation and not holding Him in your heart going to do the trick? Some of the people that I lead to the Lord just wanted their "fire insurance". The question is, are these people going to make it to Heaven or not?

What's the wager on that?

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Jan 1, 2009 | 1:38 PM

w-c I appreciate what you had to say about being religious and morality.

Now about karma. I know someone named karma and we have fun with that. Anyway it depends on the definition and use of the word karma.

Generally speaking the Hindu meaning means building up good karma so as the next time you are born you are born in a higher class (caste) until you have built up enough to be 'enlightened". Bad karma sends you down the scale to a lesser animal life, clear down to worms if necessary.

In some Buddhism karma is collected in mostly the same way. Enough good karma and the life-death-rebirth cycle of suffering is broken and you attain enlightenment or Nirvana.

The Western version of karma equates to the phrase "you reap what you sew" or "what comes around goes around". I personally believe that if you project a negative attitude then that's what you're mostly going to get back. The same with a violent or positive attitude.

I don't believe in any kind of "imaginary" force that will serve up justice or punishment. I believe that the person is totally responsible for their actions and words and destiny. I don't believe in an ultimate punishment and reward religious system. At this time I do believe in a higher power, just not one that mediates our daily lives or the the universe as a whole.

mpvan read my blog
Jan 1, 2009 | 3:23 PM

Well, what about the theory that you can buy yourself in. You know, Catholicism. Or, Jim and Tammy Faye, or Jim Jones in Jonestown---he professed to BE god and had a lot of followers, or David Koresh in Texas, he had a good thing going in Wacko for a while anyway, or that polygamist group with the old farts marrying the 14 year olds and all those old style pastel dresses, that was a cool group to chose. Or the polygamist bunch out in Utah, or the the guys with all the guns always declaring a "holy war" And what's up with the term "holy war?" Can there be such a thing? Or the other bunch that says your soul just keeps recycling itself till you get it right. Or the re-incarnation group---now there's a cool group, I would want to be re-incarnated into a beach towel at the Playboy club.

And how come it was "bad" that Obama might/was been a Muslim. This being America, are we all not tolerant of all religions. And isn't there a separation of church and state?

It's too confusing, I like the Sun God theory, you can see it.

If one religion is right, they're all wrong.

wood-cutter read my blog view my photos
Jan 2, 2009 | 11:55 AM

If a person is responsible for thier own words,actions and destiny doesnt that imply that somewhere,somehow they will be "judged"or be rewarded or punished based on them?Is your higher power ambivolent to behavior?Would he welcome the murderer with the same hospitality as the righteuous?

I get that people can treat people fairly without believeing in a higher power of any sort,but I would also argue that they are incorporating socially acceptable behavior that is largely based on "rules"that have been laid down through time as a result of religions influence.They can surely do this with out the "belief" in a "god" but would they do this without the influence religion has had on societies?

On another note,go back to my first paragraph(this post) and explain how someone is responsible for thier actions with belief in a higher power without a wager of some sort?If there are no consequences,how will you be held responsible? Arent you wagering that your good behavior will at least be recognised by the higher power? And ultimatly,doesnt this require a moniker of faith?

sew_what_2000 read my blog
Jan 2, 2009 | 12:58 PM

WC, I have heard this phenomenon of benevolent acts without belief in Jesus/God compared to the difference between marriage and just living together. Loving couples can seemingly enjoy all the benefits of marriage without the covenant/contract/"piece of paper". But the truth is that without the commitment, your relationship doesn't have any foundation. As soon as something better comes along, you don't have any reason to stay. A lot of the time, it seems to me that acts of kindness without God are only ways to promote "self". The kindness is still appreciated by the needy, but the motive (self promotion) is different. As soon as the good "self image" is established, some forget to continue giving.

There is a very good book entitled "What if Jesus had never been born?" by D.James Kennedy. It's amazing how many of the organizations, institutions and traditions that we take for granted were formed by Christian people in response to their faith. You can argue this point, but if you read this book, I think you would have to admit that the Christian faith has enriched all of our lives. (Oh by the way, this book also addresses the horrible trocities done in the name of Christianity as well, so read the book before you criticize it for being biased)

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Jan 3, 2009 | 9:32 AM

You have a lot of questions w-c so I'll try to break it down.

"If a person is responsible for thier own words,actions and destiny doesnt that imply that somewhere,somehow they will be "judged"or be rewarded or punished based on them?"
In this lifetime, "judged", if you did something against the laws of the land, then yes. By other people according to your actions and words, yes. In an afterlife - if there is one - no.

"Is your higher power ambivolent to behavior?"
Yes

"Would he welcome the murderer with the same hospitality as the righteuous?"
"He would neither reject or welcome either one, "He" is ambivalent. "He" has no hospitality.

I agree that here in the states the laws do follow a religious code of sorts, which came from mainly England, etc,. But if you go back further in history (way back) societies laws weren't based on religion.

"On another note,go back to my first paragraph(this post) and explain how someone is responsible for thier actions with belief in a higher power without a wager of some sort?"
My first thought was to say that you have to play the game to wager, but that is wrong. I'll wager that there isn't an Abrahamic God based on my original post.

"If there are no consequences,how will you be held responsible?"
In this life, by the laws of the land. In an afterlife (if there is one) I'm not.

"Arent you wagering that your good behavior will at least be recognised by the higher power?"
Nope, remember "He's" ambivalent.

"And ultimatly,doesnt this require a moniker of faith?"
Depends on your definition of faith. I have "faith"

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Jan 3, 2009 | 9:34 AM

in the cycles of nature.

Now w-c, I have some questions for you. What religion are you? I'm assuming Christian, but what sect?

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Jan 3, 2009 | 9:45 AM

sew-what-2000, you think that it's a "phenomenon" that non-religious people are benevolent? You really need to look around more. It happens all the time.

As far as you analogy of people living together vs getting married, commitment comes from the heart - not from a piece of paper. If the piece of paper carried any weight then the divorce rate would be nil. And if a ceremony carried any weight then the religious divorce rate would be nil as well.

"A lot of the time, it seems to me that acts of kindness without God are only ways to promote "self". The kindness is still appreciated by the needy, but the motive (self promotion) is different. As soon as the good "self image" is established, some forget to continue giving."
I know a lot of religious people that fit this description.

I used to be a fan of Dr. Kennedy, but all-in-all he is a little biased, isn't he?

wood-cutter read my blog view my photos
Jan 3, 2009 | 9:59 AM

When I was 8,I was baptises Methodist but as I grew older I have searched for a church that I feel comforatable with and the search goes on....

As I stated earlier,I dont beleieve those that call themselves religious to be of better moral fiber than non-religious people-Thata the issue I have with most churches I have attended-infighting,gossip,rivalry etc.... When I go to church ,I see it as sacred and leave all that at the door(assuming I carry any around anyway)but that seems to not be the case for some.Ill admit tha my standards are pretty high and I am not being a good Christian by letting such behavior affect my ability to attend a specific church for any period of time.

My faith however , is very strong,that comes from works I have seen God do in my life. I am sure,without doubt,that he has reached out to me and I thank him and only him for my many blessings.

To answer your question,I am non-denominational-simply a christian that tries to live the best life I can,continues to grow my relationship with God and is truly thankful for my blessings.(I will explain why my faith is so concrete if need be-its kind of personal but I have posted about it here recently).

LindaLouH read my blog view my photos
Jan 3, 2009 | 12:08 PM

A "wager"? Faith and belief in our Lord is so much more than a wager...not a "just in case" decision. Pascal may have been trying to simplify things for a non-believer...."you better believe..because what if you are wrong?"
He dummied it down.
I believe in ONE God. I believe that Jesus Christ came to this earth to atone for my sin, and for yours too. I don't wager my life. It's no game. I have lived a life of sin, and now one based in Christ. I have seen changes, and rewards..had my eyes opened. This is no game...no silly bet, or "what if". I am going to meet Him someday. No doubt in my mind. Call me what you want...He is the one I answer too.

sew_what_2000 read my blog
Jan 3, 2009 | 12:21 PM

well said wc. It isn't the sect or denomination that matters. It is the personal relationship with God. When you experience His work in your life, it's hard to deny--much less explain to someone who doesn't have that relationship with Him. As I've said before, I wish all Christians were morally pure, but then they wouldn't need forgiveness and would seem like a "goody two shoes" to others. I too could share stories of how He has changed my life. Praise God for the blessings He has given us.

Stephen, I didn't mean phenomenon as something rare. Maybe "fad" or "movement" would have been a better choice of words. And you are right some Christians are also like that.

sew_what_2000 read my blog
Jan 4, 2009 | 8:32 AM

Stephen, it would be interesting to compare the divorce rate with the split-up rate of those who never get married. As bad as the divorce rate is, those who never get married have no reason to stay together when things get hard or when they find someone else they like better. "Commitment" of those who just live together seems to me to be based on feelings and emotions. They can change like the wind. I also admit that marriages where the people write their own vows can be very flimsy. When there is a covenant between a man and a woman and God and witnesses,you have broken a commitment to more than one person when you divorce. Divorce should not even be an option. (But don't misunderstand and think I believe people should stay in abusive relationships either)

RabidAnglophile read my blog
Jan 5, 2009 | 9:55 AM

sew_what_2000: I'm all for marriage; especially a good solid one, but step back and think clearly for a second. Marriage is also based on feelings and emotions. That's why people get together: feelings and emotions. Frankly, I don't think a piece of paper means a darned thing except to the gov't on how you'll file your taxes and what happens to the property after break-up or death. I'll bet paper doesn't go all the way back to the first covenant either.

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Jan 5, 2009 | 11:27 AM

sew_what_2000, I agree that it would be very interesting to see those stats, divorce vs living together split-ups, but I haven't been able to find any that are any good.

I'm going to agree with Rabid and stand by my statement on commitment. The divorce rate of non-religious marriages is almost the same for Christian marriages.

If the stats aren't available then you have to go by personal experiences. I know a couple that has been married for 55+ years, raised some good responsible children and they have in turn raised some good responsible children, and they were married by a judge. I also know of some couples that lived together longer than some married couples that divorced.

I will agree, that generally, commitment isn't what it used to be.

StephentheHeathen read my blog view my photos
Jan 5, 2009 | 11:41 AM

LindaLou, I respect your beliefs, but you are betting that you're right, just as I'm betting that I'm right.

I've read some of Pascal's philosophy and he didn't dumb anything down.

If you read and consider what he said, if God "is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits" and "We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ..." and this is true then the argument against is valid. If not then you have to come up with what and who He is and then He is no longer "infinitely incomprehensible". You have then "boxed in" God.

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StephentheHeathen

I am a guilt-free and unashamedly White Male. I am also unapologetically Pagan. Politically I'm an Anarchist, the fore-runners of the Libertarians. I believe in self-reliance and critical thinking. I believe in challenging the status quo and for the government to stay out of American Citizens' private lives. I HATE bigotry and intolerance, but I believe in honoring your ancestry without using it as a weapon. I like to discuss and exchange viewpoints and maybe learn something along the way.

Member Since: 1/15/2008